3. The Heavens Do Not “Declare the Glory of God”

3. The Heavens Do Not “Declare The Glory of God.”

This post is my ongoing discussion of the third set of answers to objections to my Summary Case for Atheism, in which some Christians argue that God is a necessary explanation for the world (and by extension, the universe) around us. These arguments generally stem from Psalm 19:1, in which Christians are told that “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.”

I contend that the exact opposite is the case — the Heavens declare that the God of the Bible probably doesn’t exist and certainly did not create this universe with humans in mind. Indeed, the world and the universe appear to me to be precisely the kind of world and universe that is utterly indifferent to human life, as opposed to specially created for it.

A. The Problem of Natural Evil
This intuition begins with what philosophers call the Problem of Natural Evil: that large amounts of seemingly pointless suffering abounds around us every day. If there is a God, why would he send (or, in the sanitized language of some Christians, “permit”) a tsunami to kill 250,000 people? Why do thousands of little babies drop dead every year in the U.S. alone for no apparent reason — what we call (but cannot explain) SIDS or crib death?

I don’t mean to suggest that there are no Christian efforts to answer these sorts of questions, just that I personally find those answers unpersuasive. When Christians tell us that we have no right to expect God to “create the world for our comfort,” or that we “deserve natural evils as a punishment for sin,” that doesn’t seem to mesh with day-old babies dying for no reason. Nor does the “free will defense” seem to apply to tsunamis and little babies. Simply put: the world looks indifferent, even hostile, to us.

B. The Universe and The Total Perspective Vortex
This intuition is strengthened when we look to the world and the Universe around us. Douglas Adams amusingly called this the “Total Perspective Vortex; the idea that if you really understood how insignificant you are in comparison to the universe, the shock would “completely annihilate your brain.”

i. The Universe
At the risk of brain annihilation, let us press on. The universe, as Wikipedia helpfully tells us, is 93 billion light-years in diameter and constantly expanding, meaning that virtually all of it is permanently inaccessible to (and even unobservable by) humanity. Scientists currently believe that 96% of the universe is either dark matter or dark energy, meaning that a scant 4% of the universe is even conceptually accessible by us. Of that 4%, virtually all of it is comprised of empty space some two degrees above absolute zero, which is (of course) instantly lethal to living beings. So essentially: the universe is almost entirely off-limits to humanity, and of that which is not off-limits, almost all of that is trying to kill us.

Let’s try this another way. We occupy one planet orbiting our star. It would be difficult to precisely measure the boundaries of what constitutes our solar system, but it includes, at minimum, the orbit of the dwarf planet Eris, which spins out to approximately 100 Astronomical Units (AUs) from the Sun. Each AU is 150 million kilometers, so if we consider the Solar System to be a sphere — I know it isn’t, but bear with me here — with a radius of 100 AU, we get a volume of approximately fourteen million, million, million million (1.4 x 10^26) cubic kilometers, or enough space for more than ten trillion (10,000,000,000,000) Earths. We thus occupy, in rough, back-of-the-envelope terms, one ten-trillionth of our Solar System.

Now, consider that our galaxy contains at least two hundred billion stars and accompanying solar systems (200,000,000,000), all of which are inaccessible to us unless we engage in science-fiction make-believe and postulate some way to travel at or above the speed of light. Our galaxy, in turn is one of more than a hundred billion galaxies (100,000,000,000) in the observable universe, none of which are accessible even with science-fiction make-believe — the closest galaxy to us, Andromeda, is 2.5 million light-years away. With a little quick math, we can see that we occupy just one part in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1 x 10 ^-38 ) of the conceptual “real estate” of the universe, not counting the vast empty space between each solar system. So 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe is basically off-limits to humans.

It gets worse.

ii. The Earth
On our infinitesimal speck of the universe, most of our planet is also inaccessible to us. Over 70% of the Earth is covered in salt-water oceans that we cannot stand on, live in, or breathe or drink from. Of the remaining land, half of that is taken up by uninhabitable mountains, glaciers, deserts, or other unlivable terrain. On the tiny slice of land that is habitable, we are subject to the uncontrollable whims of nature, such as the vicious tsunami I describe above.

Keep in mind, too, that we are newcomers on the scene. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and for virtually all of that time period, the Earth’s climate has been inhospitable to human life. Meanwhile, the Sun is slowly expanding and growing hotter, such that will no longer even conceptually support life within the next billion to two billion years.

So the argument that God created this world, and this Universe, for us runs against the mountain of evidence to the contrary. At most, we have a few percent of this globe for a tiny fraction of its history, which is in turn an infinitesimal fraction of the universe. On the Christian view, God created the entire universe, allowed it to expand for 10 billion years, then crafted the Earth, then allowed it to run for 4.5 billion years, before poofing human beings into existence a few thousands of years ago, and yet somehow did all of that “for” our benefit. Worse, God poofed us into existence on a planet that is constantly trying to kill us with natural disasters, deadly viruses and bacteria, poisonous insects, and so on and so on.

I could run through the same exercise with the development of life; in fact, I think this intuitive disconnect explains why so many Christians go to such lengths to reject contemporary evolutionary biology. It just doesn’t seem compatible with Christian theology when you realize that the crocodile and the coelocanth have been around 10,000 times longer than we have.

After posting this, I found this great post on the enormity of the Universe by the “Naked Man in the Tree.” It’s worth a read.

C. Intelligent Design/Creationist Arguments

i. The Appearance of Design
One of the most common creationist arguments is that the world appears to be designed. This stems back at least as far as the famous Watchmaker argument made by 18-century theologian and philosopher William Paley. Famously, Paley suggested that if you happen to discover a watch in the woods, you would instantly recognize the watch as having been “designed” due to its complexity — in contrast to an undesigned rock, for example. From there, Paley argued that living things are far more complex than the watch and by principle of analogy must also have been designed. This argument continues to be popular among Christians today, but it has several conceptual flaws.

(a) First, the Christian asserts that there is evidence “of design” in all of creation, which is inherently contradictory. Paley’s analogy works — if at all — only by comparing the designed watch to the undesigned rock. But Christians believe that both the rock and the watch are themselves designed; that in fact the entire universe is designed! This renders the analogy inapt and the argument null.

(b) Second, the design argument rests on the false assumption that anything that looks designed for a purpose necessarily requires an intelligent creator. This is plainly not so: beavers build dams, spiders spin webs, potter wasps build tiny little pots to trap water, and so on. These things not only look designed, they serve the exact same function as human-intelligently-designed dams, nets, and pots. But the beaver’s dam, the spider’s web and the wasp’s pot are obviously not intelligently designed (unless we want to strain the definition of intelligence to the breaking point). The sandbar is “designed” to provide a break in the current and facilitate access to the water; that’s why beaches have lots of artificial ones — but, of course, sandbars form naturally as well. And so on.

We also need to be extremely careful about inferring teleology by observation. Famously, Percival Lowell thought he saw canals on Mars, and immediately inferred the existence of an intelligent alien civilization. Lowell lovingly reproduced details “maps” of the Martian canals, arguing that the perfect straightness of his observed lines was proof of intelligent creative agency. Further observation disproved Lowell’s beliefs and intelligent design inference. It’s an important object lesson in how we tend to impose our own beliefs on observable data.

(c) Paley’s argument — and related claims, like Fred Hoyle’s famous “tornado in a junkyard” also rest on the unfounded notion that life evolved “by accident.” This is a basic misunderstanding of evolutionary theory.

ii. “Information
Another common argument among ID creationists is that “information requires a designer.” Pinning down ID advocates on a definition of the word “information” is generally pretty tricky. Certainly, information in the colloquial sense does indeed appear “by itself” all the time; for example, tree rings convey information to us (how old a tree is) through an entirely naturalistic process. Similarly, in the northern hemisphere, moss generally grows only on the north side of trees, thus providing critical information to lost hikers. None of this information has to be “designed” by some external agency.

iii. Origin of the Big Bang
Creationists also frequently ask what “caused the Big Bang.” The best, most honest answer to this question — as is the case with virtually all cutting-edge theoretical physics — is “I don’t know.” However, people like physicist Victor Stenger hypothesize on possible naturalistic origins, showing that in the realm of quantum mechanics, “nothing” is less stable than “something,” making a Big Bang inevitable. Stenger thus concludes that “the universe can have formed from nothing, in complete chaos (maximum entropy), and have order form spontaneously, without violating any known principles of physics.” Stenger’s “quantum tunnelling” model is a single-universe model, and thus does not posit the controversial “multiverse” hypothesis — which is nevertheless popular among some quantum physicists.

Moreover, most physicists believe that the nature of the universe itself is fundamentally unknowable even in principle prior to what they call the “Planck time,” 1.61 x 10-43 seconds after the Big Bang, via an application of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. If that turns out to be correct, then the question “what caused the Big Bang?” may be inherently unanswerable.

D. Rejecting the “God of the Gaps”
Finally, I do concede, of course, that there are things about the Earth and about the Universe that we can’t explain. But I don’t think these unexplained phenomena are sufficient to give rise to an inference of supernatural causation. Just 500 years ago, we couldn’t explain lightning, or why maggots seemed to form spontaneously on rotting meat, or why the other planets seemed to zigzag across the sky, or why human beings have a coccyx, or countless other everyday phenomena. And 500 years ago, people ascribed those events to God or to gods.

Since then, however, we’ve developed really good explanations for these things, and, by extension, I’m not ready to go with a “god of the gaps” for the remaining things we don’t understand today. I don’t see anything conceptually that *requires* a god for explanation.

The bottom line is that this simply does not look like the kind of world, in the kind of universe, which was created and is watched over by an all-loving God for the benefit of his special creation. I thus conclude that the third line of objections to my general case for atheism does not warrant belief in God as a necessary explanation for the existence of this universe.

18 Comments »

  1. Unsympathetic said,

    Haha I feel like I’m reading Richard dawkins. About as foolish too. You are about as close minded as the Christians. It’s laughable; all this hypocracy in one place.

  2. athEIst said,

    HYPOCRACY? Rule by hippopotami? Oh you must mean HYPOCRISY–Look it up!

  3. Dave2 said,

    “hypocracy”?

  4. Ossie said,

    Strawberries Raspberries and Tomatoes ..what about them ?

    ” the world and the universe appear to me to be precisely the kind of world and universe that is utterly indifferent to human life, as opposed to specially created for it.”

    • Dreamer said,

      “Strawberries Raspberries and Tomatoes ..what about them ?”

      Wait… what about them? They’re technically berries, but I’m not seeing the link between them and the discussion.

  5. Sebastian said,

    Nice math on the “fraction of the universe that is accessible by humans” aspect.

    I have previously done some similar approximation calculations with regards to the number of atoms:

    Wikipedia tells us in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom#Earth that the Earth consists of about 1.33 × 10^50 atoms.

    Similarly, we can learn from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe#Matter_content that the observable universe consists of about 10^80 atoms.

    Dividing these two numbers, calculating the ratio of atoms on Earth vs. atoms in all of the universe gives us a number in the order of 10^-30. In other words, the physical matter that comprises Earth represents only a mere one thousandth of a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of the whole universe. Conversely, there exists mass in the universe to create 99999999999999999999999999999 other Earths.

    In addition, most of the mass of Earth is deep inside underground as molten lava, we humans only live on the surface, on a cooling crust layer.

    So if we really are gods central creations and the universe was created for us to inhabit and reign over, god must have done a poor job planning things.

  6. Who Cares said,

    Dear Andrew,
    I am a Christian. And I’m glad for what you do here. [:
    Now, I’m about to hit the hay so I ain’t gonna right much, but there’s something you should’ve known if you were a Christian

    About the natural evil, you should know about free will, fruit of knowledge, etc.. You’ll argue with points on how stupid the concept of “why did he give us free will if he knew we were going to do this and blah blah blah, and fruit of knowledge wwhHhaaat?” First, against the chance you might retalliate on that, on Free Will, even though God know what we’ll do, doesn’t change the fact that I chose to do it on my own accord. I add this part, because it’s an arguement that people had about Free Will, that Free Will, if it was created, is it really free will anymore? And it is, because even though it was created, even though the things we’re going to do are already known, they are still decisions we made ourselves. You say that’s backwards talk? Look at the point on if we didn’t have free will, if we didn’t have free will, we’d never have done anything. Or maybe you think otherwise, you think we’d still do things, but we’d be brainwashed. We we’re tricked into thinking we’re not brainwashed, but we are! What kind of BS is that? If God intentionally brainwashed you to think like that, he’s not doing a good job himself of brainwashing us is he! But, he gave us a free will, which allows you to be an atheist. To reject, him.

    So, now to the real point on Natural Evil. We ate the fruit of wisdom, knowing good and evil, and now we are forever doomed to be stuck with evil. And good. Where did evil come from? It came with free will, it’s a natural evil. It could’ve also came from God. If there is good, then there must be evil. You still don’t know where evil came from? I know you’ve already heard the sentence I said before this, but after reading it, you think; then was evil existant when God was also? Was it? We don’t know as of now, but maybe. But when you look at God, people see him as good or evil. So it probably wasn’t there, because if it was, he’d be both good and evil, he’s not. He’s just God. He’s “just”. Just cause you don’t think so doesn’t mean he ain’t. So, where did evil make its mark? Probably from God, or the other choice, free will. When given the choice, of one thing or another, comes the choice of good or evil. The fruit of knowledge allowed us to have a grasp of that knowledge, I say grasp, because we are obviously too limited in our views to know exactly what good and evil is. This is obvious in when a Christian, thinks Atheists are bad, or Atheists, think Christians are bad.

    Now, with what you are ACTUALLY, talking about. Sorry for the prologue.
    So why does God send out Tsunamis and mass murder? Have you ever thought what you yourselves, have been doing to cause these occurences? First off, you should know natural disasters like Earthquakes and Tsunamis, are(is? I dunno) the Earth’s way of recooperating itself. We know that the Earth is made of plates, and over time they get weak and stuff could seep through them, earthquakes are the moving of plate tetonics to renew the old plates. It’s our view of it, when it kills people who live in those areas, that we think it’s evil. It’s not. Tsunamis? In some cases, floods kill because ignorant people made unstable dams to prevent them in the first place, or they themselves where causing blockage and inevitabley created a flood. But Tsunamis? Why would he send it to kill people? Here’s another question. Why let anyone die? Try to image a perfect world? You see what I’m seeing? Brainwashed people who are immortal. God obviously choose not to make life like that, so we should be glad about our free will again. Why did he kill them? Guess what, Tsunamis are cause by plate tetonics also, and you know what else happens? Death! *gasp* Shocking isn’t it! Death, it actually happens. :0 Woooow, you never knew? Wha, I never knew either! That’s a piece of stool. Yeah, stool. Anyways, death happens. It’s called life. And life happens. Death, disease, all that happens, because we have bodies that can die. WOW. DIE! Yeah, and so you want to blame natural occurences on God? Good for you, sad thing is, I bet you’re going to blame God for letting you age. Gonna blame him for not getting that car. Pssh. You don’t think Free Will applies to Babies or Tsunamis? It’s called death. Heck, even before we ate the Fruit of Knowledge, we still had death. The fruit of knowledge casted us away from God spritiually, but I don’t think you wanna hear this stuff right now. You want some facts don’t ya boy? Yeaah, facts. Eat them up. I think you’ll remember something in the bible how God would condemn the next generation of the people who sinned to the whatever number. I say that just to see if you’re still listening. I know that innocent people have children who die, who doesn’t? Because I go into a point that’s going to be obvious when I say it, in spite of the previous verse, (or half a verse). Death doesn’t pick favorites. Yeah, death doesn’t. Oooh, the baby was so young, he shouldn’t have died. Death didn’t think so. You thinking, now that’s not a good way to look at it, from a CHRISTIAN point of view. Hey, then I might as well tell the goverment and everyone else not to have any Christian beliefs. Cause you don’t belieeeeve in those kind of things. And actually, the heavens DO, declare the Glory of God. You see the science that God used, to create everything? I don’t have to search stuff for you, I know you can find it out for yourself that proof exists, that we’re either made from the dumbest chances in the world,or we were specifically created.

    http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

    read the whole thing, you’l see what I mean.

    Now really, why did you add Christian efforts into the question? I know as well as you do, atheists, and people of non-christian faith help out. I’m not going to go further into this, I think you’ll agree with me that what I wrote had no point but to point something out and leave it alone like I’m some kind of ass. But that’s my intention, look at that statement. I know good people to. I know people who don’t believe in Christianity, but will still help that old lady down the street cause you care. You’ll go to ralleys to, to help others. Cause you care, I know you’re a good person, just remember it though.

    Going on.
    Heck, I’m going to write on a new post, I wrote too much. :P

  7. Who Cares said,

    Before I continue on, I want to forgive myself from sounding like a condescending female-dog. You might be angry and say, “Well why did you write like one in the first place then you stupid ***********(whatever long word you want).” I don’t think you would, you’re a good guy. But, the way I usually talk about my religion, is with confidence, and, OOOH, I know I sound like I use a “Holier-than Thou!” accent or whatnot, but I’m not. When you talk to ANY christian, remember. We’re not. We’re all equal in Gods eye. Uhp, but I’m going back into faith things you don’t have time anymore to believe yet. Yet. ;P
    So, right here, before I lose myself again, I want to say that,

    Okay, this actually is going to sound “Holier than thou”. XD

    I want to say that the Christian faith is truly real. It is. No scientific faults whatsever compared to the rest of the doctrines in the world.
    Second, (I forgot first, and I’m not going back to add it in.) I think atheists are Gods way to strengthen the faith. You’ll see a verse that says, as the day of the Lord comes closed, few and fewer will go to the Lord. Something like that, but you see it’s pretty true.
    Third, I forgot, but I want to say that I want to have civil discussion, not one that you see on tv every day where no one is really arguing, just trying to force their idea on the other, but that we’ll be able to see each others view. Even though, sadly, I try, I won’t lose my faith. XD Yeah, you see people like that. I know, but I know you, although we keep this vow, won’t really try, I mean, we ARE, technically on opposite ends. But, at least we can take something from this right?
    Oh, and my previous post, not grammatically good. Flaws? Of course there will be. I’m not perfect.
    But, just because I can’t see blackholes, does it mean they’re not there? Probably not, I mean, I’ve never seen one, but I have some faith it does. There I go again, trying to remind you of faith. -sigh- But, just because I can’t see God, or the evidence I need to prove he exists, does it really mean they don’t exist? I know you might quote it when trying to defend you’re claim that God DOESN’T, exist, or whatnot, but, only one view is correct right?
    Anyways, Andrew, I’m going to be glad talking to you. I hope you’ll be more tolerant than I am, you don’t have to be in what you say, try to limit cussing and things like that. I’m going to show this to other people you know. :] And, well you can be angry in how you speak against my words, but let’s remember, we’re civillized people in real life. Ciao. [:
    -Who Cares

  8. Who Cares said,

    Dear Andrew,
    Okay then! Oh, before I begin, another thing I forgot to add. I have NONE, well, not none. But not any information that I could say is true with as much determination as religion, but you know, history, science, politics, and so on. I’m not good at. If you got a link to describe the thing that has to do with stuff like that and so on, it’ll help me, you don’t have to. I know how to search things up, but basically, I got no information on anything. Nothing! Except what I believe in God. XD Okay, let’s start.

    Now, I noticed that I left out something about you wrote about the creation
    I post it below me.

    “I contend that the exact opposite is the case — the Heavens declare that the God of the Bible probably doesn’t exist and certainly did not create this universe with humans in mind. Indeed, the world and the universe appear to me to be precisely the kind of world and universe that is utterly indifferent to human life, as opposed to specially created for it.”

    What I want to elaborate on, is the world and universe appears to me to be precisely the kind of world and universe that is utterly indifferent to human life. I’m going to agree wholeheartedly with you on that. Because I myself am not even sure if it said that the Earth was even made for us to enjoy in the first place. I mean, of course we can enjoy the fruits, and have fun and stuff, but it wasn’t our final destination. Why do you have to make it so it has to be like that? And actually, in the New Testament I believe, it says that the world does not love us. Amazing huh, it doesn’t love us. I never knew. With all the Tsunamis and babies randomly dying, I could’ve thought the Earth was trying to kill us! (reference intended for humor. XD) But yes, the Earth rejects us, it’s stated already in the bible that that is fact. Aaah, found it, (for me, I was searching it up, it doesn’t show on a blog post sadly)

    “If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.”- John 15: 18-20

    So what I say, is that the world never did love us. It was made so we can be alive, but it’s not meant for us to totally be in harmony with it. Because the world is dead, but the kingdom of Heaven is forever. Aargh, sorry, I’m having a problem with trying to prove the sources where I get when it includes faith, which you don’t yet have again.

    NOW, with the actual brunt of the second topic.

    The Uni-verse!!!! Oooh!
    Well, I might be superficial on this topic, I’ve read it, and read the other site you linked to. I’ll respond to that maybe later, since, although it is a nice factual source, it doesn’t say much except the obvious feelings in our heart. Not much to say, like I said with the above verse, yeah, the world doesn’t love us, bacteria and Tsunami and….. DEATH!!! are kind of inevitable in a world. So you don’t like how perfectly made our planet was? Okay, not 100%, nothing here is perfect on earth. But, if it was created any farther, or any closer, if anything about it changed, we’d be dead. Although Hawkings is an atheist, he says something that helps me in pointing the miraculous universe, or at least our planet. If anything that was happening, in the universe or Earth, even one millionth of a one millionth percent, was changed at all. There would be, no Earth, no humans, nothing. Now, what does this have to do with anything with what you yourself wrote? Nothing much. I already agree with you that we weren’t made to live oh so comfortably on this planet. You don’t like the cramp spaces? Then, move out. Really? Uninhabitable (Yes I’m running around, nothing to do but point out things to other people), I can tell you that although the areas you stated might seem uninhabitable, you and I probably know enough about Native Americans who lived in the dessert, and Eskimos. So I guess they can’t live in glaciers huh, even though they do. Well, not in them, but close enough, that they use the space effectively. Survival has been pounded into the Native Americans for survival, working hard for water, and knowing how to conserve everything. So you say 70% of the Earth is uninhabitable because it’s sea-water? And half of the 30 is already impossible to live in due to its harsh conditions and unlivable spacing? And on our small 15%, we are susceptible to dying? First, we could die anywhere. Death is the result for beings like us. Now, I’m gonna jump randomly again. Reply to me to help me point out my faults, or half written points. I need to elaborate on them when I remember where they are.

    I was going to write something, but I forgot. Remind what it was so I explain it to you.
    I’ll move on to my second point.
    Going out against contemporary evolutionary biology? I can’t speak for others, but I’d say there’s no reason why people should. Do you refer to stem cell research? If looking into it helps debunk the theory of certain evolutionary points, or helps prove how intricate God’s power was in design. Fine by me. It doesn’t seem compatible that pre-historic “dinosaurs” to the Christian I mean, that they could’ve existed before humans? And by millions of years? So you don’t think the coelacanth is a normal fish? Dinosaur or not, I think it still existed. Now, I admit I have no substantial information on the idea of dinosaurs or whatnot, as of now. Yeah, I’m leaving off on another cliffhanger; say that when you reply to this comment, and when I have my information, I’ll reply to you with my answer.

    Now, since I wrote on the Universe incompletely, let’s continue on with the next topic.

    Intelligent Design, Creationist Arguments
    a) So, using the watchmaker’s analogy, we start off. Now, if we were to assume that the watch shows design, we can assume that the undesigned rock has no design. This is around the original thought. The Christian view, as you say, that both the undesigned rock and designed watch both have a purpose. More into this later. Another view, where someone could say none of them are truly designed, (I believe we already know this answer, but it’ll have to be explained anyways later). And finally, the view you present, that the undesigned rock in Christians view, is a design itself, you think of it as a flawed idea.
    So, you say that the
    “beavers build dams, spiders spin webs, potter wasps build tiny little pots to trap water, and so on.”
    And you call it unintelligent. If it so stupid in reality, why do we copy them? We copy spiders by weaving fabric, we build our own dams, a lot more efficient, but the design is there, potter wasps, holding water in jars, and so on. If they are so unintelligent designs, why do we continue to learn from them? Have you thought of this? That, in creation, when God made things, he made intentional things, and natural things. But with God, we all know everything is intentional, even the natural things. Created the intentional so the natural exists, and that the idea of it is already conceived in God’s mind. Not, sorry for skipping what you wrote before that,
    “Second, the design argument rests on the false assumption that anything that looks designed for a purpose necessarily requires an intelligent creator.”
    So, I’m not sure what you exactly refer to, the designs the animals made, or to some other point. If you refer to the animal and their designs, then think of who made the animals. Aaaah, right, it was God, wasn’t it? Now, I know my rebuttals for things I said are not in the correct places, but, try to bear with me. (remember, you don’t have to, just asking). You said that the things the animals made, are the exact same thing as what we make. Like I said. And I say again, who came first? Who thought of it all first? To answer these questions, I say God and the animals. Who thought of it all first, was God. Animals were created before we were in the Bible, if you did not notice. So although the way they create it isn’t perfect, neither was the way we did it, but even though it’s better, does it change the fact that something inferior to us in your possible opinion of “intelligence”, created something we copied? This is a design chain, going from Humans, Animals, and God, in ideas from lowest to highest. We have the intelligence to adapt, I’ll say that. Continuing with Design needs a creator.

    b) Design, in fact, does need an intelligent creator. God created animals, they created something that he created them to do within their species, he creates us, and we steal the idea from them. And we call them inferior for thinking of the idea in the second place. We thought of it third.
    So now you talk about Sandbars. If we’re not going to look at the way a sandbar is created, we might as well call the natural ones man made. But that’s not the point. So you say that sandbars are “designed”, to do what they do. Your sarcasm shows you don’t believe it was designed. It was an accident. Since we’re talking about Gods, are there really any accidents? Maybe if there was no God, the accidental chances of us existing being so close to impossible, and the fake we actually survive with the accidental conditions and so forth, are so long in list, when there is no creator, that everything becomes accident. Not intentional, even, possibly, natural. Let’s talk about earthquakes and tsunamis again. Are they “designed”? Yeah. They are. If we had no earthquakes, we’d have no earth to stand on. No tsunamis? This is tough for me, only because all the information I look up on it are about what to do when it happens. Only a few say its benefits. So I’ll assume this, (yeah, I made it up, but it sounds plausible, just like science) Tsunamis usually occur because of earthquakes, or the moving of tectonic plates. After this occurs, the water moves up into multiple waves that are repeating crashing again and again in certain areas, usually, areas with a lot of land. Asia and Europe, etc. So why do the help? It could be, in earlier times you an atheist might believe in, when the Earth was on fire, lava and such everywhere. After the Earthquakes started, and lave rushed out onto the surface, could it be, that the tsunamis that occurred after such earthquakes, cooled the magma? Allowing us the land we have? Of course, I know that is not completely true, but near the end of the “earth construction,” these tsunamis could’ve been used to finalize the lava, and turn it into land. Another theory could be that tsunamis were usually occurring near volcanoes, so after a volcano erupts, the lava can dry pretty quickly if it didn’t reach water. Or, the tsunamis could be used to clean up the already existing land. SO many possible reasons it could’ve existed, but the reason God might’ve allowed it, because he designed it so. You look at sandbars, and think, no design whatsoever. Again, why do we mimic it then? We make MAN-MADE ones now! There was a design in it that God might’ve wanted us to use, and so he allowed sandbars to occur. Because, God could’ve added a chemical component in the minerals that wouldn’t allow the sand to keep hold, but since it does, there was a design in it. Yeah, you look at the undesigned rock, and think, “That has no design”, well, if it didn’t, why was it there? It had a purpose to fulfill, or it would not have existed. Real quickly on what I personally believe. If there’s no purpose for anything, God doesn’t exist, we’re all chance. What’s the point then? Seriously? Make love over and over again, drink, smoke, and do whatever, what’s the point? What’s the point of doing something, and what’s the point of not doing something unless there was a purpose? You say, why; to get a good education, do well in life or whatever. But what’s past that? DEATH! And if you think there’s no God, and we’re an accident, I guess we should all kill ourselves since knowledge has no use when we’re gone huh? Has to be a purpose. And you say, “Why do you Christians live then huh? Die and be with your God.” One, suicide is killing yourself. XD Seriously though, we should all know that one. The second reason, the one I want to exploit, is that, when you reach for Heaven, you get Earth mixed in, you reach for Earth, and you get none of them. So I’m not living for Earth, I’m living for Heaven and Earth is being mixed in. I might not have as “important” of a use when I go to heaven about accounting, but I’ll still have it in heaven. Being a good person? I’ll have it in heaven. And so on.

    c) http://www.biblelife.org/evolution.htm only to prove the Darwinism point is false. Or try looking at this. http://www.bible.ca/tracks/b-darwin-was-wrong.htm I don’t exactly agree with Fred Hoyle’s whole, Fallacy. You and I already see the errors in it. I’ll digress more on it if you want, just ask, and, well, I can only give my own opinion on it, and a few other things on it.

    ii) The reference about the tree ring. The fact the tree was designed, is fact that the tree ring concept was designed along with it. (Whoa, I lost my footing, so if I don’t make sense, tell me to explain when your respond) About the-
    “None of this information has to be “designed” by some external agency.”
    That’s obviously not true if you think about the design of the tree. The external force is God, after creation, just looking and the natural things around us, we can see creation. Like I said about my opinion to the “The Heavens Do Not ‘Declare the Glory of God'”.

    iii) Sadly, on the Origin on the Big Bang, would be wrong of me to blatantly reply to. Since it is science, not that it’s bad, but it’s a form of science that is not my forte. But a few opinions then, which I ask you, correct them. My opinions are going to be wrong, and I want to be corrected so I can answer you more fully. Sadly, I did not finish reading the articles, (I know, poor sport of me to), but the formulas written are beyond me. I’ll look again later though, I promise you.
    Oh, and I noticed that my point about the existence, and purpose, was stated already in one of the articles. So no problem there, but I didn’t finish reading so I don’t know.
    Now, what I want to know, how something comes from nothing. I see the formulas, read a bit. And it talks about the total erratic behavior of nothingness, and the inevitability that nothing would be forced to cause a Big Bang. I don’t understand the nothing out of something concept, truly, because I can’t imagine something appearing in a tight vacuum. A scenario I read about a room, that has absolutely nothing inside it, and I mean nothing, atoms, molecules, none. And you, outside, must get something inside it, and create everything. I don’t even know much about the quantum-tunneling idea, but it’s illogical to me so far, if you attacked, or changed the exterior of the room in anyway, you have a chance of just breaking the whole thing down. Yeah, you might’ve gotten something in, but you also made the thing that’s inside outside again by destroying the room.
    And like you stated, he believes in only a one-universe model, so it wouldn’t work when you have nothing in, and expect the nothing outside to help you out. 1 nothing, plus 1 nothing, equals nothing.

    Finale) You have made the testament about the “God of Gaps” ideology. Explain it to me when you reply, I can only assume right now you mean that “using God to explain everything”. Which, honestly, you never had to do. Heck, even you as an atheist can live that. Proof? You are. I say this, because obviously we now know some things that were unknown before, like you said. And besides, you can actually prove many things without having to insert God in the formula. The reason though, why other start with saying it was God who did it, is because he created all things. And where else would it start? It starts with God, the designs he made, and how he made it so it could be found naturally by us. Or not so naturally. And with what you said about us explaining things? I agree, but on the other side of the coin. With the intelligence and resources we have, we don’t have to attribute things to “God”, but to the facts we’ve found ourselves. We as Christians don’t have to look in the Bible to have proof that Noah’s Ark existed. We actually found it! No, I’m not sending a link; it’s a heavily Christian link, which I don’t think you’d enjoy. So just look it up for yourself, it’s been found, and we know it’s true. Historically, we can prove things in the Bible also, we’re finding more and more facts that point to the legitimacy that the Bible is history. Now, before I go on, actually, before I end. Remember, if you want to look at the Bible face value, it’s a historical book. Just, like, any, other. Truth be told, if you’re going to deny the historical legitimacy of the Bible, I might as well deny the Holocaust ever existed, or that George Washington was an actual person. Because, although the time it occurred is a lot closer, the time we got the information, wasn’t. The Bible, has been going on written, and said, even before Christ, you read in the New Testament, they even referred to events in the Old Testament sometimes. The New Testament even says that they themselves had bibles! The bible has been going on, handed and written down over and over again. The historical facts about others? Only like a couple of decades later, when we found information on them, we see a few books, and we do a lot of other things. But, I’m saying, with the legitimacy of the Bible, and other books. The Bible is a lot more legit. The Bible has been written, recorded and passed down to as close as eye-witness testimonies. And they kept on going, almost never ceasing in the timeline it took to reach us now. History now a days? Say we had some information on Alexander the Great, pssssh. It was what, until many years after the fall of Rome, that OUR, historians found some information about them and started writing history from that long gap. And you believe THAT, but not the bible? Pssssssssh. Wow.
    Anyways, although this was a very sarcastic, and rude sounding argument, I try to be frank as well as I can. I hope to get a very thoroughly well written reply from you in the future. In the mean time.
    Have fun.
    -Who Cares

  9. Who Cares said,

    To Sebastian,
    Simply Put, we ourselves are not Gods.

  10. Who Cares said,

    Now, again, forgive me for being rude and being downright superficial. I know that you may see things in the things I wrote you’ve already seen, I’m looking around now seeing that myself, and I also know I posted first although it’s your site. If there’s things on your site you want me to see before you continue, tell me when you reply and I’ll comply.

  11. Another Christian Guy said,

    I’d just like to point out that a lot of we Christians dont beleive that God created the universe for humanity. Like us, the universe was created for the glory of God. Whilst we are the ultimate expression of his creativity, majesty and the only parts of creation able to have a relationship with him, that just means that we’re the cherry on top, not the cake itself.

    The Sheer vast hostility of the universe is daunting, but also humbling. The sheer vastness and power of the stars.

    ill post this link. Now, the content is emotional and as an Aetheist you might find it somewhat painful, but the contents quite solid and It will show you another christian perspective on the huge stark universe

  12. ASN said,

    Study the words of buddha taught.

    I am not encouraging you to become buddhism.

    If you don’t believe, don’t follow. Just study it.

    All of you will know the true.

    All of you will accept the buddha taught, at the time of buddha born.

    • Robert Kilps said,

      Which Buddha? There are thousands of dieties (many have come and gone since those ‘early’ days of the invention of Buddhism.) Kind of similar to the man-made Mayan and Aztec gods, the man-made gods of Greek and Roman empire, the long forgotten Nordic gods, and the gods of Hinduism which used elephants to hold up the planet, etc. etc. Oh, yeah that’s right, the Buddhists once believed that this planet rested on turtles.
      No matter what you think about the Bible, you can’t get around the God/person of Jesus Christ. A person would have to be completely devoid of any ability to accept historical information IF they can’t accept the fact that a person (known as Youshua) walked the Middle East claiming to be the biblically prophesied Redeemer of Israel.
      Doesn’t it amaze you that the teachings of Christ have infiltrated all aspects of humanity?
      Doesn’t it amaze you that literally millions of books, songs, sermons etc. have come about because of the teachings of Jesus?
      Doesn’t it amaze you that so many places of helping people—like hospitals, rescue missions, orphanages, medical rescue groups, food-pantries, colleges were all started by Christians?
      Where are all those loving, caring atheistic agencies and medical groups when earthquakes or floods destroy lifes?
      Where are all those loving Buddhists and caring Hindus when the world is looking for medical help?

      How many places in this world do you see REAL bible-based, Jesus-following (according to His teachings) Christians (not political Catholics or blinded fanatical hybrid religious zealots) blowing people up, destroying nations because of GREED, or encouraging people to HATE those who don’t agree with them?

      Why do so many people (even religious people) HATE Jesus? They HATE His position on morality. That HATE His teaching about HIM being the ONLY way. That HATE His position on greed, self-centeredness, hypocrisy and religious deception. They hate Him because He (being God) KNEW the world would HATE Him because He was the LIGHT and the world loves the DARKNESS more than the like the Light.

      Robert Kilps

  13. amarie said,

    I never met an atheist who could wholeheartedly say, “There is no possibility God exists” So therefore truly is no such thing as an atheist. As a christian; I have nothing to lose, but if you who say you are atheist are wrong…. mmmmmm think about it.

  14. A Christian has everything to lose if he is wrong. Maybe Islam, or some other religion, and not yours, is true. Then you will spend eternity in that religion’s hell. Maybe the true God believes in rational thinking over faith. Maybe he rewards rational thinking with heaven and so-called faith with hell.

  15. Robert kilpatrick said,

    I have nothing to lose. Jesus taught people to love their enemies…not blow them up! Jesus taught men to love and honor their wives…not treat them like property. Jesus taught to never repay evil with evil. Jesus taught that people should not regard themselves as better than someone else. Jesus taught that the person who wants to be great in the Kingdom of God must be a servant of all. These are a few of Jesus’ teachings. I believe these teachings make for a better world…don’t you?

    • Many other religions and ethical systems teach the same. Of course rape and slavery was ok in the Bible. However, as far as your eternal destiny goes, you could be serving a wrong or false God!

      A Christian has everything to lose if he is wrong. Maybe Islam, or some other religion, and not yours, is true. Then you will spend eternity in that religion’s hell. Maybe the true God believes in rational thinking over faith. Maybe he rewards rational thinking with heaven and so-called faith with hell.


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